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rainydayДата: Воскресенье, 14.03.2010, 10:48 | Сообщение # 1
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пока еж закрыт, можно разговор
продолжить например здесь
на общие уравнительные темы,
(а не только про пайпса и ислам) wacko
 
НеизвестныйДата: Воскресенье, 02.05.2010, 10:43 | Сообщение # 391
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вообще-то оно есть в новом завете
и в некоторых высказываниях Иисуса -
про то, что он и Отец одно и никто не придёт к Отцу кроме как через него
и ещё в других местах, правда этот концепт не был ещё чётко сформулирован,
но в принципе присутствовал уже

Есть, но:
1 Там нет Святого Духа
2 Там есть строгая иерархия:кто-то спрашивает Иисуса о будущем (опять таки, не помню кто и где) и Иисус отвечает:
"этого я не знаю, и никто не знает, кроме моего Отца".
А в идее Троицы есть равенство, как я понимаю...

 
НеизвестныйДата: Воскресенье, 02.05.2010, 10:45 | Сообщение # 392
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наоборот - именно толкование троицы либо трикайи
как трех отдельных "существ" категорически неправильно
это как разные ипостаси одного
проявляющие просто разные качества,
но являющиеся одним целым

Могут ли эти 3 ипостаси обладать разными волями?
По определению ведь, воля Бога-отца не может противоречить воле Бога-сына и воле Святого Духа.
 
rainydayДата: Воскресенье, 02.05.2010, 10:47 | Сообщение # 393
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Как я понимаю, греки поняли, что есть противоречие:
Если Бог один, совершенен и абсолютен, то Он не может быть динамичен и меняться или менять что-то во времени. А если так, то Он не мог создать мир, поскольку создание - это динамика.
Аристотель на это отвечает:конечно, не может! Поэтому мир существовал всегда!

вообще-то это противоречие - видимость
от ограниченности понимания

совершенство и абсолют Бога
совершенно необязательно должно мешать его деятельности
в нашем изменяющемся мире

ЗЫ интересно, что мне раньше Платон нравился заведомо больше Аристотеля,
в котором я видела лишь занудного классификатора
и прородителя современных саентистов-позитивистов,
но сейчас я вижу, что они дополняют друг друга
и в некоторых понятиях - например принимании существующего как данности
как оно есть - Аристотель интереснее и мудрее

 
rainydayДата: Воскресенье, 02.05.2010, 10:54 | Сообщение # 394
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Могут ли эти 3 ипостаси обладать разными волями?
По определению ведь, воля Бога-отца не может противоречить воле Бога-сына и воле Святого Духа.

здесь речь идёт о несколько другом -
о существовании на как бы разных уровнях бытия
и их внутреннем неразрывном единстве

Сын выполняет волю Отца - то-есть является как бы его
орудием и воплощением в материальном мире

разные же воли - как раз и принадлежат только
разным существам и проявляются в субъектно-объектном мире
к Троице это отношения не имеет

 
НеизвестныйДата: Воскресенье, 02.05.2010, 10:54 | Сообщение # 395
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вообще-то это противоречие - видимость
от ограниченности понимания
совершенство и абсолют Бога
совершенно необязательно должно мешать его деятельности
в нашем изменяющемся мире

Мне кажется, для греков-философов понятие вмешательства Бога в уже созданный мир - не существовало, они видели в Нем только часовщика. Но вопрос:зачем "Совершенству и Абсолюту создавать что-то?" стоял.
Quote
ЗЫ интересно, что мне раньше Платон нравился заведомо больше Аристотеля,
в котором я видела лишь занудного классификатора
и прородителя современных саентистов-позитивистов,
но сейчас я вижу, что они дополняют друг друга
и в некоторых понятиях - например принимании существующего как данности
как оно есть - Аристотель интереснее и мудрее

Я все еще нахожусь в стадии, в которой Вы были раньше smile
Хотя и Платона читала так мало, что не берусь говорить о нем вовсе, а уж об Аристотеле - тем более.
 
НеизвестныйДата: Воскресенье, 02.05.2010, 10:56 | Сообщение # 396
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здесь речь идёт о несколько другом -
о существовании на как бы разных уровнях бытия
и их внутреннем неразрывном единстве
Сын выполняет волю Отца - то-есть является как бы его
орудием и воплощением в материальном мире
разные же воли - как раз и принадлежат только
разным существам и проявляются в субъектно-объектном мире
к Троице это отношения не имеет

Но существование на разных уровнях, выполнение воли Отца, которая, стало быть, может отличаться от воли Сына - это и есть та самая иерархия, против которой возражает ув Партизан (а с ним и христианские Соборы)
 
rainydayДата: Воскресенье, 02.05.2010, 10:58 | Сообщение # 397
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Мне кажется, для греков-философов понятие вмешательства Бога в уже созданный мир - не существовало, они видели в Нем только часовщика. Но вопрос:зачем "Совершенству и Абсолюту создавать что-то?" стоял.

греки тоже бывали разные smile

вопрос "зачем" по отношению к Абсолюту
по определению некорректный smile
так как тем самым его невольно антропоморфирует и включает
в причинноследственный ряд - который к нему не относится

действие от избытка и возможности
отличается от деятельности из за недостаточности и необходимости

 
rainydayДата: Воскресенье, 02.05.2010, 11:01 | Сообщение # 398
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Но существование на разных уровнях, выполнение воли Отца, которая, стало быть, может отличаться от воли Сына - это и есть та самая иерархия, против которой возражает ув Партизан (а с ним и христианские Соборы)

и я тоже буду возражать вместе с ними smile

когда Сын осознаёт своё единство с Отцом,
(Атман и Брахман - одно)
то никакой иерархии нет как нет и отдельной его личной воли

это скорее похоже на матрёшку или луковицу,
чем на три отдельных независимых друг от друга персонажа
хотя и "внутри" в пространственном смысле - тоже неправильно

а то вдруг кто-нибудь ещё буквально воспримет wacko

 
НеизвестныйДата: Воскресенье, 02.05.2010, 11:03 | Сообщение # 399
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греки тоже бывали разные
вопрос "зачем" по отношению к Абсолюту
по определению некорректный
так как тем самым его невольно антропоморфирует и включает
в причинноследственный ряд - который к нему не относится

Ну они еще просто не дошли до уровня Бертрама Рассела, который примерно сказал:
задавать вопрос о том, может ли Бог создать камень, который Он не может поднять - непременно приведет к неразрешимому противоречию, и поэтому надо просто запретить задавать такие вопросы
smile
 
НеизвестныйДата: Воскресенье, 02.05.2010, 11:05 | Сообщение # 400
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и я тоже буду возражать вместе с ними
когда Сын осознаёт своё единство с Отцом,
(Атман и Брахман - одно)
то никакой иерархии нет как нет и отдельной его личной воли
это скорее похоже на матрёшку или луковицу,
чем на три отдельных независимых друг от друга персонажа

Вы меня совсем запутали, попробую прочитать ту статью wacko
 
rainydayДата: Воскресенье, 02.05.2010, 11:07 | Сообщение # 401
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Вы меня совсем запутали, попробую прочитать ту статью

приносите и сюда интересные кусочки

 
rainydayДата: Воскресенье, 02.05.2010, 11:09 | Сообщение # 402
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и поэтому надо просто запретить задавать такие вопросы

просто некоторые вопросы некорректны и не имеют смысла:
как "какого цвета волосы у черепахи?"
по большому счёту вопрос про камень
такого же типа если разобраться
и в основном это просто лингвистические казусы,
которые почему-то очень впечатляют
привязанных к словам позитивистов

 
НеизвестныйДата: Воскресенье, 02.05.2010, 11:14 | Сообщение # 403
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приносите и сюда интересные кусочки

Ну вот он:

2. Trinity
From the beginning, Christians have affirmed the claim that there is one God and that three persons are God: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. In AD 675, the Council of Toledo framed this pair of claims as follows:

Although we profess three persons we do not profess three substances but one substance and three persons … If we are asked about the individual Person, we must answer that he is God. Therefore, we may say God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit; but they are not three Gods, he is one God … Each single Person is wholly God in himself and … all three persons together are one God.
Such formulations set forth the Christian doctrine of the Trinity. Cornelius Plantinga, Jr., reflecting on the Council of Toledo's profession, remarks that it “possesses great puzzling power” (Plantinga 1989, 22). No doubt this is an understatement. The Christian doctrine is puzzling, and this has led some of Christianity's critics to advance the claim that it is, in fact, incoherent.

Perhaps the initial puzzling power of the doctrine of the Trinity is not immediately obvious. After all, someone might think that one thing, Fred, can be “many things” all at the same time, for example, a butcher, a baker, and a candlestick maker. So why can't God be Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all at the same time? Likewise, multiple distinct things can all be “one thing” at the same time. Thus, each member of the Baltimore Orioles baseball team can be Orioles taken individually, as well as “the Orioles” taken collectively. One might then think that defenders of the Trinity might be able to construct models out of such examples that would preserve the logical coherence of the doctrine. But things will not be quite that easy. To see why, we can take a brief detour and then come back to the two examples above.

Traditional Christian theologians have held that however the doctrine of the Trinity is understood, there are two extreme positions that are to be ruled out. These positions are modalism and tritheism. According to modalism, God is one single entity, object, or substance, and each person of the Trinty is simply a mode or a “way in which the one divine substance manifests itself.” This view has been rejected because it seems to sacrifice the distinctness of the divine persons in order to maintain the notion of divine unity. According to tritheism, on the other hand, the divine persons are each distinct individual persons which are so closely related that they together count as a single thing in some fashion. Nonetheless, despite this oneness, the three persons are still three gods. This view has been rejected for the opposite reason, namely, it preserves the distinctness of persons without maintaining any robust sense of the “oneness” of God.

One can now see why the “butcher, baker, candlestick maker” and the “Orioles” examples will not help us in providing a model for the Trinity. The first, like modalism, leans too heavily towards oneness at the expense of the distinctness of the three persons. It holds, that is, that there is really only one Fred, but that Fred can manifest himself in different ways by carrying out three different tasks. The second, like tritheism, leans too far in the opposite direction. On this example, the individual Orioles only form the “single team” because of certain agreements they have made to act cooperatively on the baseball field. There is no genuine, organic unity here.

We would be better equipped to separate the suitable models from the unsuitable ones if we had a clearer notion about just what the Christian means to affirm in confessing the existence of three persons and one God. What is “a person” according to the doctrine, and what is “a God”? Does it make sense, for example, to say that God is a community of wholly distinct (non-overlapping) individuals? Might God be a composite entity? Or should we think of God instead as something like a simple (partless) soul? How we answer these questions will make a big difference in the sorts of Trinitarian models that we regard as viable. Likewise, should we think that something counts as a person only if it is an individual, rational substance? Or might we use the term ‘person’ in a more psychological sense, to refer to something like a “center of consciousness or rational awareness.” Here too our decisions will help to determine our choice of models. And matters are complicated by the fact that neither the Bible nor the traditions of the church offer clear guidance on these questions. As a result, there is a good deal of remaining latitude in constructing a model for the Trinity.

In what follows, we will consider current models of the Trinity: the social model, the psychological model, and the constitution model.

 
НеизвестныйДата: Воскресенье, 02.05.2010, 11:14 | Сообщение # 404
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2.1 The Social Model
Throughout the gospels, the first two persons of the Trinity are referred to as ‘Father’ and ‘Son’. This suggests the analogy of a family, or, more generally, a society. Thus, the persons of the Trinity might be thought of as one in precisely the way that, say, Abraham, Sarah, and Isaac are one: just as these three human beings are one family, so too the persons of the Trinity are one God. But, since there is no contradiction in thinking of a family as three and one, this analogy removes the contradiction in saying that God is three and one. Those who attempt to understand the Trinity primarily in terms of this analogy are typically called Social Trinitarians. This approach has been (controversially) associated with Greek or Eastern Trinitarianism, a tradition of reflection that traces its roots to the three great Fathers of the Eastern Church—Basil of Caesarea, his brother Gregory of Nazianzus, and their friend Gregory of Nyssa.

More recently, Richard Swinburne has defended a version of this view according to which each of the three divine persons has all of the essential characteristics of divinity: omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, moral perfection, and so forth. However, these three persons are unlike other persons with which we are familiar (and, importantly, unlike the gods of familiar polytheistic systems as well) in that they have necessarily harmonious wills, such that their volitions never come into conflict, and that there is a perfectly loving relation that also necessarily obtains among them. Further, this view is compatible with traditional claims of dependence relations among members of the Trinity. Traditional formulations of the doctrine hold that the Father generates the Son and that Father and Son jointly give rise to (or spirate, literally “breathe forth”) the Holy Spirit. Such relations are possible as long as one person causes the other in such a way that the causing relation has always obtained, and it is impossible for the relation not to obtain.

On this sort of view, there is one God because the community of divine persons is so closely inter-connected that, though they are three distinct persons, they nonetheless function as if they were a single entity. If we were to consider a set of three human persons, for example, who exhibited these characteristics of necessary unity, volitional harmony, and love, it would hard to regard them as entirely distinct in the way we do ordinary persons. And that is, of course, just what the doctrine aims to put forth.

Perhaps this view seems to lean too strongly in the tritheistic direction. How could the social Trinitarian respond to this worry? One way would be to focus attention on exactly what is required in order for many “things” to jointly compose another single “thing.” My (one) body is composed of (many) atoms. My (one) car is composed of (many) parts. Thus, likewise, the one God might be thought of as composed of three Persons. And, indeed, this is exactly what many Social Trinitarians have wanted to say. Thus, for example, C. S. Lewis has famously suggested that God is composed of three persons in just the way that a cube is composed of six sides. More recently, J. P. Moreland and William Lane Craig (2003) argued that the relation between the persons of the Trinity can be thought of as analogous to the relation between the three “dogs” that compose Cerberus, the mythical guardian of the underworld.

Still, part-whole analogies raise additional worries of their own. Is God a fourth thing in addition to the divine persons? If so, what sort of thing is God? Apparently we face a dilemma: Either God is a person, or God is not. If the former, then we have a quaternity rather than a trinity. If the latter, then we seem to commit ourselves to claims that are decidedly anti-theistic: God doesn't know anything (since only persons can be knowers); God doesn't love anybody (since only persons can love); God is amoral (since only persons are part of the moral community); and so on. Bad news either way, then. Thus, many are motivated to seek other models.

2.2 The Psychological Model
Many theologians have looked to features of the human mind or “psyche” to find models to help illuminate the doctrine of the Trinity. Historically, the use of psychological analogies is especially associated with Latin or Western Trinitarianism, a tradition that traces its roots to Augustine, the great Father of the Latin-speaking West. Augustine himself suggested several important analogies. But since each depends for its plausibility on aspects of medieval theology no longer taken for granted (such as the doctrine of divine simplicity), we'll pass over them here and focus instead on two analogies in this tradition that have been developed by contemporary philosophers.

Thomas V. Morris has suggested that we can find an analogy for the Trinity in the psychological condition known as multiple personality disorder: just as a single human being can have multiple personalities, so too a single God can exist in three persons (though, of course, in the case of God this is a cognitive virtue, not a defect)(Morris 1986). Others—Trenton Merricks for example—have suggested that we can conceive of the persons on analogy with the separate spheres of consciousness that result from commissurotomy(Merricks 2006). Commissurotomy is a procedure, sometimes used to treat epilepsy, that involves cutting the bundle of nerves (the corpus callosum) by which the two hemispheres of the brain communicate. Those who have undergone this procedure typically function normally in daily life; but, under certain kinds of experimental conditions, they display psychological characteristics that suggests there are two distinct spheres of consciousness associated with the two hemispheres of their brain. Thus, according to this analogy, just as a single human can, in that way, have two distinct spheres of consciousness, so too a single divine being can exist in three persons, each of which is a distinct sphere of consciousness.

It might appear that the analogy with multiple personality disorder is no better off than the “butcher, baker, candlestick maker” analogy, and therefore similarly leads us into modalism. After all, the personalities of those who suffer from the disorder might seem to be nothing more than distinct manifestations of a single (albeit divided) consciousness which, like the roles of Fred, cannot be manifested at the same time. And the commissurotomy analogy might appear on closer inspection not to be interestingly different from the social analogy. For if there really can be several distinct centers of consciousness associated with a single being, then the natural thing to say is that the “single being” in question is either an additional sphere of consciousness composed of the others, or else a “society” whose members are the distinct spheres of consciousness. But it is far from clear that these criticisms are decisive. And, at least on the surface, these two analogies seem to have a great deal of heuristic value; for both seem to present real-life cases in which a single rational being is nonetheless “divided” into multiple personalities or spheres of consciousness.

2.3 The Constitution Model
The third and final solution to the problem of the Trinity that we want to explore invokes the notion of ‘relative sameness.’ This is the idea that things can be the same relative to one kind of thing, but distinct relative to another. More formally:

RELATIVE SAMENESS: It is possible that there are x, y, F, and G such that x is an F, y is an F, x is a G, y is a G, x is the same F as y, but x is not the same G as y.
If this claim is true, then it is open to us to say that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the same God but distinct persons. Notice, however, that this is all we need to make sense of the Trinity. If the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the same God (and there are no other Gods), then there will be exactly one God; but if they are also distinct persons (and there are only three of them), then there will be three persons.

The main challenge for this solution is to show that the relative-sameness assumption is coherent. This challenge has been undertaken by a number of prominent contemporary philosophers, including Peter Geach and Peter van Inwagen. Despite the efforts of these philosophers, however, the relative-sameness assumption has remained rather unpopular. The reason appears to be that its defenders have not provided any clear account of what it would mean for things to be the same relative to one kind, but distinct relative to another. Recently, however, Michael Rea and Jeffrey Brower have suggested that reflection on statues and the lumps of matter that constitute them can help us to see how two things can be the same material object but otherwise different entities. If this is right, then, by analogy, such reflection can also help us to see how Father, Son, and Holy Spirit can be the same God but three different persons.

Consider Rodin's famous bronze statue, The Thinker. It is a single material object; but it can be truly described both as a statue (which is one kind of thing), and as a lump of bronze (which is another kind of thing). A little reflection, moreover, reveals that the statue is distinct from the lump of bronze. For example, if the statue were melted down, we would no longer have both a lump and a statue: the lump would remain (albeit in a different shape) but Rodin's Thinker would no longer exist. This shows that the lump is something distinct from the statue, since one thing can exist apart from another only if they're distinct. (Notice that the statue can't exist apart from itself.)

It might seem strange to think that a statue is distinct from the lump that constitutes it. Wouldn't that imply that there are two material objects in the same place at the same time? Surely we don't want to say that! But then what exactly are we to say about this case? Notice that this isn't just a matter of one thing appearing in two different ways, or being labeled as both a statue and a lump. Superman and Clark Kent can appear differently (Clark Kent wears glasses, for example); but the names ‘Superman’ and ‘Clark Kent’ are really just different labels for the same man. But our statue analogy isn't like this. Superman can't exist apart from Clark Kent. Where the one goes, the other goes too (at least in disguise). But the lump of bronze in our example apparently can exist apart from The Thinker. When melted, the lump survives while The Thinker does not. If that's right, then, unlike Superman and Clark Kent, the statue and lump of bronze really are distinct things.

Philosophers have suggested various ways of making sense of this phenomenon. One way of doing so is to say that the statue and the lump are the same material object even though they are distinct relative to some other kind. (In ordinary English, we don't have a suitable name for the kind of thing relative to which the statue and the lump are distinct; but Aristotle and Aquinas would have said that the statue and the lump are distinct form-matter compounds.) Now, it is hard to accept the idea that two distinct things can be the same material object without some detailed explanation of what it would mean for this to occur. But suppose we add that all it means for one thing and another to be “the same material object” is just for them to share all of their matter in common. Such a claim seems plausible; and if it is right, then our problem is solved. The lump of bronze in our example is clearly distinct from The Thinker, since it can exist without The Thinker; but it also clearly shares all the same matter in common with The Thinker, and hence on this view is the same material object.

By analogy, then, suppose we say that all it means for one person and another to be the same God is for them to do something analogous to sharing in common all of whatever is analogous to matter in the case of divine. On this view, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the same God but different persons in just the way a statue and its constitutive lump are the same material object but different form-matter compounds. Of course, God is not material; so this can only be an analogy. But still, it helps to provide an illuminating account of inter-Trinitarian relations, which is all that we are currently asking for.

This account is not entirely free of difficulties however. Most importantly, it does not directly answer the question of how many material objects are present for any given region, lump, or chunk. Is there an objective way of deciding how many objects are constituted by the lump of bronze that composes The Thinker? Are there only two things (statue and lump) or are there many more (paperweight, battering ram, etc.)? And if there are more, what determines how many there are? Unless we can answer this question it is hard to know why the “divine matter” constitutes exactly three persons (and not more).

 
rainydayДата: Воскресенье, 02.05.2010, 11:15 | Сообщение # 405
Амелия Эрхарт
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